Dave and Zayne discuss meditation

[5/18/2010 3:53:45 AM] Zayne Smith: so, I tried to meditate
[5/18/2010 3:54:00 AM] Zayne Smith: how do I know if its "working" lol- or is that a wrong question?
[5/18/2010 3:54:22 AM] David: :)
[5/18/2010 3:54:27 AM] Zayne Smith: lol
[5/18/2010 3:55:09 AM] Zayne Smith: I keep wondering, am I getting to that deeper side, or am I fooling myself
[5/18/2010 4:07:18 AM] David: A teacher tells his students tomorrow he will give them the most powerful meditation technique he knows, the one that will fully transmit the essence of his teachings to them, and the one that will carry them to enlightenment. The students were overjoyed at the prospect that at last they will have the meditation that they enrolled for, the one technique they will need. They speculated on what the technique was, some unbelievably advanced method. So the day came. The teacher began, "Alright, today I'll teach you the technique that you've been asking for, the final technique you need. First, before we start, let's take a moment. Just calm ourselves for a few minutes. Just breathe quietly. In and out." Several minutes pass. "Notice your body, as it breathes, and sits." Several minutes pass. "Notice the room, and the place we're in." By now, twenty minutes had passed. Then the teacher said. "Okay, thank you." A student in front asked, "But what about the technique?" The teacher said, "You just did it."
[5/18/2010 4:08:07 AM] Zayne Smith: sigh
[5/18/2010 4:08:08 AM] Zayne Smith: lol
[5/18/2010 4:08:21 AM] Zayne Smith: thats kinda what I figured
[5/18/2010 4:08:42 AM] Zayne Smith: ok well then ill tell you about it, it felt like my eyes dried out rly fast
[5/18/2010 4:08:51 AM] Zayne Smith: I couldnt sit still
[5/18/2010 4:10:58 AM] David: How long did you sit?
[5/18/2010 4:11:29 AM] Zayne Smith: well I was trying to to do for about 30 mins but I moved, as in got up and walked or changed position about 4 or 5 times maybe more
[5/18/2010 4:12:28 AM] David: Well, as I say, go easy on yourself, at the start. Try a smaller amount of time.
[5/18/2010 4:15:47 AM] Zayne Smith: yea I think ill do that
[5/18/2010 4:17:10 AM] David: If two guys sit everyday for a month, the guy who had thirty successful one minute meditations is a better meditator than the guy who tried to do thirty half hour meditations that were all restless and unskilled and irritable.
[5/18/2010 4:17:59 AM] Zayne Smith: icic
[5/18/2010 4:18:21 AM] David: Better that you reinforce successful technique with a shorter time, than continually fail at attempting a longer time.
[5/18/2010 4:18:53 AM] David: It's no good to continually reinforce frustration and irritation.
[5/18/2010 4:20:22 AM] Zayne Smith: yea I agreee
[5/18/2010 4:21:07 AM] Zayne Smith: im just not sure whats successful and what isnt
[5/18/2010 4:53:40 AM] Zayne Smith: so its ok if im day dreaming about flying around, or thinking "man my eyes are dry" or worrying about a test or whatever..?
[5/18/2010 4:54:14 AM] David: There's a thing called fresh start.
[5/18/2010 4:54:46 AM] David: Fresh start is when you notice that you are restless and worrying and irritable
[5/18/2010 4:56:13 AM] David: and you notice that, and you say, oh wait. And right there, as soon as you notice that, you can go back, "Okay, start again", and start fresh as if you had just sat down, as if you had just begun your session. A fresh start, right then. And you can hit that fresh start button at any time during the session.
[5/18/2010 4:56:52 AM] David: And you can press that fresh start button as much as you want or need to.
[5/18/2010 4:57:07 AM] David: Even if you're hitting it every twenty seconds.
[5/18/2010 4:57:28 AM] Zayne Smith: meditation makes my brain hurt
[5/18/2010 4:57:54 AM] David: This isn't easy and it takes awhile.
[5/18/2010 4:57:56 AM] David: Meditation is not for wimps.
[5/18/2010 4:58:05 AM] David: Meditation is serious stuff. And it will kick you around, no question.
[5/18/2010 4:58:14 AM] Zayne Smith: so
[5/18/2010 4:58:33 AM] Zayne Smith: if im thinking about someone else, fresh start?
[5/18/2010 4:58:40 AM] Zayne Smith: something, someone, somewhere ect
[5/18/2010 4:59:10 AM] Zayne Smith: the main problem im having is I have no idea what im sposta be doing lol
[5/18/2010 4:59:18 AM] David: This isn't easy and it takes awhile.
[5/18/2010 4:59:43 AM] Zayne Smith: im not sure if I just let my thoughts take me somewhere, or focus on the source of those thoughts, or focus on not having thoughts

[5/18/2010 6:08:59 PM] Zayne Smith: well im not sure if I just did it "right" but that was def not what happen yesterday, and it didnt piss me off at all... I wouldnt say it was comforting either but its something umm productive? not sure how to word it
[5/18/2010 7:17:47 PM] David: Cool.
[5/18/2010 7:20:21 PM] Zayne Smith: if you have another audio/video or anything else im ready =D
[5/18/2010 7:20:42 PM] David: Sure thing.
[5/18/2010 7:21:29 PM] David: How about some Shinzen?
[5/18/2010 7:22:00 PM] David: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvk99BRxlPw
[5/18/2010 7:22:01 PM] David: I'll watch along with you.
[5/18/2010 7:22:03 PM] David: :)
[5/18/2010 7:22:18 PM] Zayne Smith: kk
[5/18/2010 7:22:22 PM] David: Shinzen's hardcore!
[5/18/2010 7:39:10 PM] Zayne Smith: pretty interesting but there were many terms I dont know
[5/18/2010 7:39:38 PM] David: Ever see Close Encounters of the Third Kind?
[5/18/2010 7:39:44 PM] Zayne Smith: yea
[5/18/2010 7:39:52 PM] David: "First day of school, gentlemen."
[5/18/2010 7:39:56 PM] David: ;)
[5/18/2010 7:39:59 PM] Zayne Smith: lol
[5/18/2010 7:40:37 PM] David: Shinzen's awesome.
[5/18/2010 7:41:03 PM] Zayne Smith: so after meditating for many years people can walk around with that feeling all the time?
[5/18/2010 7:41:15 PM] David: Yes.
[5/18/2010 7:41:22 PM] Zayne Smith: that would be awesome
[5/18/2010 7:41:36 PM] Zayne Smith: and im sure im tapping into maybe 5% of what can be reached haha
[5/18/2010 7:42:05 PM] Zayne Smith: so, how much time do you spend in that state on avg?
[5/18/2010 7:45:27 PM] David: Me?
[5/18/2010 7:45:37 PM] Zayne Smith: yea =P
[5/18/2010 7:45:38 PM] David: Zero percent.
[5/18/2010 7:45:45 PM] Zayne Smith: o.0
[5/18/2010 7:46:13 PM] David: Again, and it makes no sense, I know, but I'll keep saying it. That's not why you practice.
[5/18/2010 7:46:25 PM] David: You don't meditate to attain anything.
[5/18/2010 7:46:30 PM] David: You meditate to meditate.
[5/18/2010 7:46:33 PM] Zayne Smith: then what motivates you?
[5/18/2010 7:46:33 PM] David: That's it.
[5/18/2010 7:46:37 PM] David: That's it.
[5/18/2010 7:46:45 PM] David: It's its own motivation.
[5/18/2010 7:46:53 PM] Zayne Smith: then why not learn to dance, or ice skate or fly a kite?
[5/18/2010 7:46:59 PM] David: Good question.
[5/18/2010 7:48:04 PM] David: If dancers, ice skaters, kite flyers have gotten results you are interested in, then dance, skate, and kite fly.
[5/18/2010 7:48:38 PM] Zayne Smith: um
[5/18/2010 7:49:23 PM] Zayne Smith: if someone is interested in results than they must be going for something right?
[5/18/2010 7:49:35 PM] David: Ah. You noticed that.
[5/18/2010 7:49:43 PM] David: A bit of a contradiction, huh?
[5/18/2010 7:49:48 PM] Zayne Smith: yea
[5/18/2010 7:49:55 PM] David: Well, get used to that.
[5/18/2010 7:50:10 PM] David: There's going to be a lot more of those kinds of contradictions.
[5/18/2010 7:50:17 PM] Zayne Smith: yay
[5/18/2010 7:50:31 PM] David: As I say, this stuff makes little sense in our cultural context.
[5/18/2010 7:50:38 PM] David: It's a different way of thinking.
[5/18/2010 7:50:58 PM] Zayne Smith: well, it seems to me if these people who meditate for years and years and gain some kind of state of mind than that is the goal, although im aware that chasing after that goal is futile, it is where one will find themself given enough time, practice and assuming their not going on the wrong path
[5/18/2010 7:51:00 PM] David: You do both. Work towards attainment, without attachment.
[5/18/2010 7:51:08 PM] David: Without being attached to the result.
[5/18/2010 7:51:36 PM] David: Obviously, the benefits are important and motivating,
[5/18/2010 7:52:10 PM] David: and they will come for us, with diligent practice,
[5/18/2010 7:52:35 PM] David: but that's not why we practice.
[5/18/2010 7:52:55 PM] Zayne Smith: well
[5/18/2010 7:53:05 PM] Zayne Smith: I think I see what your saying
[5/18/2010 7:53:08 PM] David: Those great things will happen, with correct practice.
[5/18/2010 7:53:18 PM] David: But if you are
[5/18/2010 7:53:21 PM] David: attached
[5/18/2010 7:53:24 PM] David: to that,
[5/18/2010 7:54:00 PM] David: But if you are attached to that outcome, if you are hungering for that result, if you are desirous of that goal,
[5/18/2010 7:54:01 PM] David: then
[5/18/2010 7:54:05 PM] David: it is
[5/18/2010 7:54:12 PM] David: just another kink
[5/18/2010 7:54:21 PM] David: just another trap
[5/18/2010 7:54:29 PM] David: just another hang up.
[5/18/2010 7:54:39 PM] David: And then you are using spirituality
[5/18/2010 7:55:34 PM] David: exactly the same as anything else, Captitalism, drug abuse, television, acquisitionism, materialism, etc.
[5/18/2010 7:55:52 PM] David: You've just substituted one trip for another.
[5/18/2010 7:56:25 PM] David: This time "being spiritual", "being holy" "being an evolved avatar," etc.
[5/18/2010 7:56:36 PM] David: it's just another kink. One less destructive,
[5/18/2010 7:56:51 PM] David: but still just another hang up that will ultimately just bring more suffering.
[5/18/2010 7:57:00 PM] David: If it's used that way.
[5/18/2010 7:58:08 PM] Zayne Smith: yea that makes sence
[5/18/2010 7:58:50 PM] David: First law of the Buddha, life is suffering.
[5/18/2010 7:59:04 PM] David: Second law, the cause of suffering is desire.
[5/18/2010 7:59:22 PM] David: Desiring spiritual attainment is still desire.
[5/18/2010 7:59:35 PM] David: Desire leads to suffering.
[5/18/2010 7:59:44 PM] David: No matter what it is you are desiring.
[5/18/2010 8:00:05 PM] David: Meditation will cause you to dis-attach to desire.
[5/18/2010 8:00:28 PM] David: because you will see that the thing that is desiring
[5/18/2010 8:00:50 PM] David: is your ego, your mind, your little-s self, your psyche.
[5/18/2010 8:00:59 PM] David: And you will see that that desiring thing
[5/18/2010 8:01:02 PM] David: isn't you.